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	<title>Comments on: Owning Jerusalem: Identity and Borders in the Holy City</title>
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	<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2008/06/owning-jerusalem-identity-and-borders-in-the-holy-city/</link>
	<description>A Progressive, Skeptical Blog on Israel, Judaism, Culture, Politics, and Literature</description>
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		<title>By: SoJo Morning Line-Up</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2008/06/owning-jerusalem-identity-and-borders-in-the-holy-city/comment-page-1/#comment-840</link>
		<dc:creator>SoJo Morning Line-Up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 20:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.wordpress.com/?p=172#comment-840</guid>
		<description>[...] Internationalizing Jerusalem? It won&#8217;t work, Haim says. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Internationalizing Jerusalem? It won&#8217;t work, Haim says. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: niqnaq</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2008/06/owning-jerusalem-identity-and-borders-in-the-holy-city/comment-page-1/#comment-519</link>
		<dc:creator>niqnaq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Isn&#039;t the question of whether Jerusalem is physically divided, by a wall, distinct from the question of whether it is legally divided, by a border?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the question of whether Jerusalem is physically divided, by a wall, distinct from the question of whether it is legally divided, by a border?</p>
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		<title>By: DanH</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2008/06/owning-jerusalem-identity-and-borders-in-the-holy-city/comment-page-1/#comment-518</link>
		<dc:creator>DanH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.wordpress.com/?p=172#comment-518</guid>
		<description>Haim,

Thank you for your reply. I am in the &quot;overwhelmed by the intractability&quot; camp, not the idealist camp. Or more precisely, I see how division could work and may even be necessary in the short run. However, I am not sure that an all-Jerusalem city council is going to be impossibly more dysfunctional, than, say, the dangerously fragmented Knesset is now.

It is clearly going to take several generations for the bitterness to subside. But is important to start the interactions that will cause that to happen. It was not so long ago that large numbers of Palestinians crossed the border to work alongside Israelis, though it may be impossible to imagine such a thing at the moment.

I do not see how Israel can remain a giant walled city in the long run. In the short run, Israel has decided it is necessary for survival. But I despair if no effort is made to start opening the gates in both directions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haim,</p>
<p>Thank you for your reply. I am in the &#8220;overwhelmed by the intractability&#8221; camp, not the idealist camp. Or more precisely, I see how division could work and may even be necessary in the short run. However, I am not sure that an all-Jerusalem city council is going to be impossibly more dysfunctional, than, say, the dangerously fragmented Knesset is now.</p>
<p>It is clearly going to take several generations for the bitterness to subside. But is important to start the interactions that will cause that to happen. It was not so long ago that large numbers of Palestinians crossed the border to work alongside Israelis, though it may be impossible to imagine such a thing at the moment.</p>
<p>I do not see how Israel can remain a giant walled city in the long run. In the short run, Israel has decided it is necessary for survival. But I despair if no effort is made to start opening the gates in both directions.</p>
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		<title>By: The Other Alan</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2008/06/owning-jerusalem-identity-and-borders-in-the-holy-city/comment-page-1/#comment-517</link>
		<dc:creator>The Other Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.wordpress.com/?p=172#comment-517</guid>
		<description>&quot;Because they give neither the Jews nor the Arabs what they want and need-ownership and sovereignty in the city they see as their capital.&quot;

The same can be said for the country at large, and this calls out, more than anything, to the fantasy of two-states.  I won&#039;t even go so far as calling it a two-state solution, because with two states I see no solution, just further fragmentation.

&quot;It’s when people feel that their national and religious identities are under threat that they take up arms to defend them–and justly so.&quot;

Sometimes, maybe more often than not, when people feel threatened they lash out against &quot;Them&quot;.  Just look at Zionism.  Instead of defending against the depredations suffered in Europe, Zionists turned their attention to a return to the Land of Israel and began lashing out against the Palestinians, conjuring up every means to disenfranchise this population and impose Jewish dominion.

 So in this sense Palestinian resistance is justified, and justice will be served when the effort to impose dominion and the disenfranchisement ends.  This is probably the only solution for Israel.  To become great enough, and stay big enough, to accomodate within its border west of the Jordan the concept that &quot;diversity of human culture, language, historical narrative, and paths to God is a gift and an asset&quot; not just for Jews but for all equally.  Retreating into small-minded ethno-religious fragmentation continues until such time that a higher notion of existence on this Earth takes root.

Right now Israel has only insecurity in mind.  Keep Jews insecure to promote immigration and entrenchment.  Keep them insecure by highlighting Jews as the world&#039;s #1 victims.  Keep Palestinians insecure in their ties to their homeland.  But as Abraham Lincoln noted, &quot; A drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Because they give neither the Jews nor the Arabs what they want and need-ownership and sovereignty in the city they see as their capital.&#8221;</p>
<p>The same can be said for the country at large, and this calls out, more than anything, to the fantasy of two-states.  I won&#8217;t even go so far as calling it a two-state solution, because with two states I see no solution, just further fragmentation.</p>
<p>&#8220;It’s when people feel that their national and religious identities are under threat that they take up arms to defend them–and justly so.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sometimes, maybe more often than not, when people feel threatened they lash out against &#8220;Them&#8221;.  Just look at Zionism.  Instead of defending against the depredations suffered in Europe, Zionists turned their attention to a return to the Land of Israel and began lashing out against the Palestinians, conjuring up every means to disenfranchise this population and impose Jewish dominion.</p>
<p> So in this sense Palestinian resistance is justified, and justice will be served when the effort to impose dominion and the disenfranchisement ends.  This is probably the only solution for Israel.  To become great enough, and stay big enough, to accomodate within its border west of the Jordan the concept that &#8220;diversity of human culture, language, historical narrative, and paths to God is a gift and an asset&#8221; not just for Jews but for all equally.  Retreating into small-minded ethno-religious fragmentation continues until such time that a higher notion of existence on this Earth takes root.</p>
<p>Right now Israel has only insecurity in mind.  Keep Jews insecure to promote immigration and entrenchment.  Keep them insecure by highlighting Jews as the world&#8217;s #1 victims.  Keep Palestinians insecure in their ties to their homeland.  But as Abraham Lincoln noted, &#8221; A drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Y. Ben-David</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2008/06/owning-jerusalem-identity-and-borders-in-the-holy-city/comment-page-1/#comment-516</link>
		<dc:creator>Y. Ben-David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.wordpress.com/?p=172#comment-516</guid>
		<description>Prof Mordechai Kedar of Bar-Ilan University appeared on Al-Jazeera&#039;s prime-time talk show on Yom Yerushalayim.  The host asked him what business of it was the Jews to be in Islam&#039;s holy city of Jerusalem. Kedar replied that Jews were worshipping G-d in the Temple in Jerusalem 3000 years ago when the Arab predecessors of the Muslims were worshipping idols, burying baby girls alive and drinking wine...meaning that first and foremost, Jerusalem is a Jewish city, long before the Muslims made any claim to it.  The host then replied &quot;but Jerusalem is mentioned in the Qu&#039;ran&quot;. Kedar says &quot;no, Jerusalem is NOT mentioned even once in the Qu&#039;ran&quot;. The host started quoting and then realized the verse doesn&#039;t mention Jerusalem by name, only referring to &quot;al-Masjid al-Aqsa&quot; (the far distant place).

Kedar was interviewed the next day on Yaron Dekel&#039;s radio (Reshet Bet) talk show &quot;Hakol Diburim&quot;. He asked Kedar whether it was wise to mix religion with politics. Kedar (who used to be an activist in the religious Leftist party Meimad and supported the Oslo Agreements but has recanted these things) said, &quot;you don&#039;t understand...to the Muslim, the two are one and the same thing.  The existence of a Jewish state is a terrible affront to the Muslim religion.  They feel jihad is mandatory in order to get rid of the abomination of a dhimmi Jewish state in the Middle East&quot;.

So there you have it.   The problem is not &quot;letting the Palestinians find their identity in Jerusalem by controlling part of it (are you willing to give them Judiasm&#039;s holiest place-The Har Habayit-Temple Mount?).  Splitting the difference as you advocate will not solve the problem, it will only exacerbate it by showing the Arabs/Muslims that we are not serious because by giving up our own holiest places to them, we are not prepared to struggle for anything and we are admitting that &quot;really, they are right...we don&#039;t belong here at all&quot;.

This is the reality of the situation, as difficult as it may be to accept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof Mordechai Kedar of Bar-Ilan University appeared on Al-Jazeera&#8217;s prime-time talk show on Yom Yerushalayim.  The host asked him what business of it was the Jews to be in Islam&#8217;s holy city of Jerusalem. Kedar replied that Jews were worshipping G-d in the Temple in Jerusalem 3000 years ago when the Arab predecessors of the Muslims were worshipping idols, burying baby girls alive and drinking wine&#8230;meaning that first and foremost, Jerusalem is a Jewish city, long before the Muslims made any claim to it.  The host then replied &#8220;but Jerusalem is mentioned in the Qu&#8217;ran&#8221;. Kedar says &#8220;no, Jerusalem is NOT mentioned even once in the Qu&#8217;ran&#8221;. The host started quoting and then realized the verse doesn&#8217;t mention Jerusalem by name, only referring to &#8220;al-Masjid al-Aqsa&#8221; (the far distant place).</p>
<p>Kedar was interviewed the next day on Yaron Dekel&#8217;s radio (Reshet Bet) talk show &#8220;Hakol Diburim&#8221;. He asked Kedar whether it was wise to mix religion with politics. Kedar (who used to be an activist in the religious Leftist party Meimad and supported the Oslo Agreements but has recanted these things) said, &#8220;you don&#8217;t understand&#8230;to the Muslim, the two are one and the same thing.  The existence of a Jewish state is a terrible affront to the Muslim religion.  They feel jihad is mandatory in order to get rid of the abomination of a dhimmi Jewish state in the Middle East&#8221;.</p>
<p>So there you have it.   The problem is not &#8220;letting the Palestinians find their identity in Jerusalem by controlling part of it (are you willing to give them Judiasm&#8217;s holiest place-The Har Habayit-Temple Mount?).  Splitting the difference as you advocate will not solve the problem, it will only exacerbate it by showing the Arabs/Muslims that we are not serious because by giving up our own holiest places to them, we are not prepared to struggle for anything and we are admitting that &#8220;really, they are right&#8230;we don&#8217;t belong here at all&#8221;.</p>
<p>This is the reality of the situation, as difficult as it may be to accept.</p>
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		<title>By: Barbara</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2008/06/owning-jerusalem-identity-and-borders-in-the-holy-city/comment-page-1/#comment-515</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.wordpress.com/?p=172#comment-515</guid>
		<description>&quot;A nation strong and secure in its identity can afford to give up some of its native territory and accept and acknowledge that other nations have other beliefs and narratives. When a people feels secure–not just militarily, but culturally as well–they can compromise.&quot;

Exactly, I would say. But then, are so many Israelis really insecure? Are settlers? Is it insecurity that makes them blind or something else altogether?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A nation strong and secure in its identity can afford to give up some of its native territory and accept and acknowledge that other nations have other beliefs and narratives. When a people feels secure–not just militarily, but culturally as well–they can compromise.&#8221;</p>
<p>Exactly, I would say. But then, are so many Israelis really insecure? Are settlers? Is it insecurity that makes them blind or something else altogether?</p>
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