Also this need for worship I find troubling. I surmise it has something to do with evolution and the general structure of the human brain. Some of us are free from such and I dare say won’t survive considering the billions on planet earth who need to believe in some invisible somethings that are larger than they are and somehow better. It has been found that evolution is an ongoing process and is constantly putting out traits because the environment can change and as such traits that are optimum for survival at one time won’t be later. What I have is one such trait. We are at a critical juncture for survival of our species and if we don’t fix that which ails us we shall either return to our marginalized existence of 100,000 years ago or become extinct as the other 99% over the 3.8 (or so) billion years of life on earth. Intelligence and opposing thumbs aren’t enough for us.

What we need for survival is to work with our differences and not use them to suppress that which we personally don’t like. To believe or not is fine with me as long as we don’t force it on each other and put it in places where it doesn’t fit like gov’t, and science. I could certainly be wrong on that about science but not concerning survival. I wish I had a greater mentality to be able to see the highest probable outcome of our past and present decisions will affect us and the biosphere we live on.

My motto is to not directly harm others and live and let live. Maybe we can all live like that.

Regarding Sagan’s “candle in the darkness”-Sagan seemed to think that religion and science were in opposition. This is not true. Although science is useful, it is not a value system unto itself. It is a tool for understanding the world around us. “Scientific thinking” is also important, but many scientists have crazy and dangerous ideas outside their own realm of specialization. For example, one of the first Nobel Prize Winners in Physics was Phillipe Lenard who became an enthusiastic follower of Hitler and Nazism, and who denounced Einstein for creating a supposedly “corrupt Jewish science” in opposition to “true Aryan Science”.
So worship of “science” and “scientists” can be just as harmful as blind religious fanaticism.

There’s the rub the makes me back away from any religion: a claim to know the mind of God.

As one whose father was ordained and who was raised with religion, I know how powerful it can be to watch many people worshiping, praying, chanting in unison, saying the same things repeatedly. It is mesmerizing on a child, independent of content.

It took me years to break free of the powerful effect and realize that the Pope and the man on the street are no different in their claims to know the mind of God.

Let anyone believe as he or she wishes and congregate with those who feel the same without restriction, but let diversity reign for only in that way is there freedom.

Sam, thank goodness there is secularism for us to step back, as you put it.

Carl Sagan said science is a candle in the darkness. With competing claims to know the word of God and refusal to admit the possibility of error in those claims, we are lost without any common foundation in the real world of facts. The darkness waits to swallow us up once again when we decide what we believe is unquestionable and put God’s name behind it.

Firstly,to have a certain ideology, is not only to believe in a certain truth, but also a different course of action. One may believe in socialism, but that is not the full ideology, how they put this Belief into action is also part of their personal ideology.

Secondly, the connection between the subjects in your reply is frail, that is to say your reply is a endless mumbo jumbo of facts and non-facts hurled at Mr. Sam Fleischacker post. you may disagree with Mr. Fleischacker, but simply hurling fruitless information as a reply is a very silly way to express your beliefs.

Thirdly, saying things like that the Muslims are “butchering” each other, is not politically correct, and is an insulting and unintelligent way to say things. You should have minimal respect for others, to say the very least.

And lastly, as to the tolerance you mention: Judging from your previous replys and this one, where you are commonly radical, fanatical, and even childish, you are unfit to say a thing as to tolerance, something you quite obviously lack.

Have a good day.

However, I find the first two comments curious. The first writer seems to suggest that a person can’t have an abortion or be gay AND also be “a religious person”. This seems to suggest that only those who believe as the writer believes should be considered religious, and that would be a ridiculous and bigoted view to hold.

The second writer states “religious people HAVE been more successful in imparting these good “middot” on their followers than have been the secular ideologues.” I think this is also a false view, and I would suggest he review a contemporary Humanist Manifesto” to further his understanding of nontheistic moral values.

And I should also point out that while I agree with his distaste for the style of Dawkins and Hitchens, and believe they defeat their purposes with their vitriol, by far and away, all over the world, it is the non-religious who suffer disparagement, as the writer proves when he draws a false paraelle of the tavern customer and the x rated film viewers equated with non-theistic people.

There is a big gap between believes and religion. Most of the conflicts arise out of believes not religion If we go to the fundamentals members of the three great religions all believe in the G-d of Abraham after that it’s a ” free for all” If we all can have a believe in this invisible all- omnipotent G-d why can’t we believe that he had a higher purpose for us than to spend so much time and money killing each other?

In the end, it does seem that, in spite of all the flaws of the different religious communities in the world through the ages, religious people HAVE been more successful in imparting these good “middot” on their followers than have been the secular ideologues. As Dennis Prager has asked: “if you were walking down a dark alley and you saw two big men walking towards you, would you feel better if you knew they had just come out of Bible study class, or a tavern or porno movie?”

(1) The existence of unfaith around us causes religious people to be filled with a legitimate fear, both fear of their brethren and children leaving the faith, and fear of the collapse of values heralded by secularism. It is this fear that lead s religious people to quench religious innovation, and at times to irrational and immoral acts which are hurtful to the religious purpose.

(2) There really is a contradiction of values between religion and secularism. in a recent visit to Colorado in which I spent most of my time in the capacity of American liberals. My views on abortion (termination of life should be prevented and limited as much as possible), “homosexuality”(an immoral and abhorrent deed), cremation (barbaric disrespect for the deceased) and narcotics (Murder includes poisoning of oneself) made me feel like public enemy number one. so much for living in a secular world.

Sam, we may sometime be critical of our co-religionists, our religious leaders , and our religious societies, but that should not lead us to the illusion the the secular world is any better. it’s not.

On a final note, considering the amount of religious bloodshed that has been inthis region since the days of Hajj Amin, I think it is better to applaud interriligious dialogue and cooperation rather than bemoan the fact that it does not comform to western individualism.

*Full disclosure this blog may soon be paying for my bed, board, and tuition*