Comments on: Return to Hebron, City of Nightmares and Hope http://southjerusalem.com/2008/12/return-to-hebron-city-of-nightmares-and-hope/ A Progressive, Skeptical Blog on Israel, Judaism, Culture, Politics, and Literature Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:35:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: A Visit to Israel and Palestine « No thanks, I’ll speak for myself http://southjerusalem.com/2008/12/return-to-hebron-city-of-nightmares-and-hope/comment-page-1/#comment-15716 A Visit to Israel and Palestine « No thanks, I’ll speak for myself Sat, 05 Sep 2009 04:04:53 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=627#comment-15716 [...] we visited the H2 section of Hebron which is connected to the Kiryat Arba settlement. We entered H2 from Kiryat Arba, which is an illegal settlement under international law. [...] [...] we visited the H2 section of Hebron which is connected to the Kiryat Arba settlement. We entered H2 from Kiryat Arba, which is an illegal settlement under international law. [...]

]]> By: City of Patriarchs and Police http://southjerusalem.com/2008/12/return-to-hebron-city-of-nightmares-and-hope/comment-page-1/#comment-8179 City of Patriarchs and Police Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:31:52 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=627#comment-8179 [...] of whom I had already visited on previous trips - see Gershom’s blog reports here, here and here) or the ex-soldiers of Shovrim Shtikah, but people who go home to their wives and children after [...] [...] of whom I had already visited on previous trips – see Gershom’s blog reports here, here and here) or the ex-soldiers of Shovrim Shtikah, but people who go home to their wives and children after [...]

]]> By: Joshua http://southjerusalem.com/2008/12/return-to-hebron-city-of-nightmares-and-hope/comment-page-1/#comment-5454 Joshua Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:08:19 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=627#comment-5454 "Pogrom" or no "pogrom"; semantics YBD. It's unacceptable. Quit with the polemics and do what you proposed you would do: CONDEMN THE VIOLENCE. Period. "The most seriously injured person..." Is that meant to make everything more "balanced" here? How many Palestinians were injured? Missing in your account, I figured. Just stop with the tough-talk. It's counterproductive and if you are really trying to create a positive outlook for settlers, you are doing a very poor job of it. “Pogrom” or no “pogrom”; semantics YBD. It’s unacceptable. Quit with the polemics and do what you proposed you would do: CONDEMN THE VIOLENCE. Period.

“The most seriously injured person…” Is that meant to make everything more “balanced” here? How many Palestinians were injured? Missing in your account, I figured.

Just stop with the tough-talk. It’s counterproductive and if you are really trying to create a positive outlook for settlers, you are doing a very poor job of it.

]]> By: Gershom Gorenberg http://southjerusalem.com/2008/12/return-to-hebron-city-of-nightmares-and-hope/comment-page-1/#comment-5395 Gershom Gorenberg Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:56:08 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=627#comment-5395 Mr. Ben-David, Perhaps before commenting so assiduously on history, you should study it with greater care. Here is a description of the pogroms of 1881-82 from YIVO (http://www.yivo.org/downloads/Pogroms.pdf): "The pogroms of 1881 and 1882, which occurred in waves throughout the southwestern provinces of the Russian Empire, were the first to assume the nature of a mass movement. Typically, the pogroms of this period originated in large cities, and then spread to surrounding villages, travelling along means of communication such as rivers and railroads. Violence was largely directed against the property of Jews rather than their persons. In the course of more than 250 individual events, millions of rubles worth of Jewish property was destroyed. The total number of fatalities is disputed but may have been as few as 50, half of them pogromshchiki who were killed when troops opened fire on rioting mobs." In other words, in the classic wave of riots from which the concept of "pogrom" emerged, 25 Jews were killed in 250 incidents. Clearly, most of those pogroms did not involve fatalities. Nonetheless, they were despicable. YIVO describes a pogrom as "an outbreak of mass violence directed against a minority religious, ethnic or social group." This fits what happened in Hebron, except perhaps for the fact that the Palestinians are the majority in Hebron and the West Bank. The general passivity of the authorities in the face of the violence also fits the classic pattern of pogroms. Mr. Ben-David,

Perhaps before commenting so assiduously on history, you should study it with greater care.

Here is a description of the pogroms of 1881-82 from YIVO (http://www.yivo.org/downloads/Pogroms.pdf):

“The pogroms of 1881 and 1882, which occurred in waves throughout the southwestern provinces of the Russian Empire, were the first to assume the nature of a mass movement. Typically, the pogroms of this period originated in large cities, and then spread to surrounding villages, travelling along means of communication such as rivers and railroads. Violence was largely directed against the property of Jews rather than their persons. In the course of more than 250 individual events, millions of rubles worth of Jewish property was destroyed. The total number of fatalities is disputed but may have been as few as 50, half of them pogromshchiki who were killed when troops opened fire on rioting mobs.”

In other words, in the classic wave of riots from which the concept of “pogrom” emerged, 25 Jews were killed in 250 incidents. Clearly, most of those pogroms did not involve fatalities. Nonetheless, they were despicable.

YIVO describes a pogrom as “an outbreak of mass violence directed against a minority religious, ethnic or social group.” This fits what happened in Hebron, except perhaps for the fact that the Palestinians are the majority in Hebron and the West Bank. The general passivity of the authorities in the face of the violence also fits the classic pattern of pogroms.

]]> By: Y. Ben-David http://southjerusalem.com/2008/12/return-to-hebron-city-of-nightmares-and-hope/comment-page-1/#comment-5384 Y. Ben-David Fri, 12 Dec 2008 06:16:41 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=627#comment-5384 Your use of the term "pogrom" shows simply ideological hysteria on your side. "Pogroms" were organized violence against Jews conducted for political reason in which hundreds of Jews were killed. NO ARABS WERE KILLED IN THE ATTACKS IN HEVRON. The most seriously injured person was a Jewish boy. Now, before you all go into attack mode...I TOTALLY CONDEMN ATTACKS ON ARAB PROPERTY OR PERSONS CARRIED OUT IN 'DEFENSE" OF THE HOUSE IN HEVRON. But, let's be honest, these attacks serve YOUR interest, you of the "progressive", anti-Judea/Samaria crowd. You may have heard Lenin's infamous statement "to make an omelet, you have to crack eggs". People have asked why the police were so ineffective in stopping Jewish attacks on Arab property yet they managed to organize the subsequent assault on the House very efficiently. Maybe someone in high places (Barak?) thinks that the perception of "Jewish violence" will serve the political interests of those, like you, who want the Jews out of Hevron, or that it will increase the vote for the Labor Party whose standings in the polls is very low? The Jews of Hevron and Kiryat Arba need good relations with the neighboring Arabs more than you do in your Jerusalem cocoon. I spoke to one of the people who was living in the House and they said they were succeeding in establishing communications with the neighboring Arabs which had been broken off by Oslo and Israel's importation of Arafat's terrorists who intimidated Hevron's Arabs into breaking off contact with the city's Jews which had been intitiated from the very beginning of Jewish settlement in the area in 1971. Your use of the term “pogrom” shows simply ideological hysteria on your side. “Pogroms” were organized violence against Jews conducted for political reason in which hundreds of Jews were killed. NO ARABS WERE KILLED IN THE ATTACKS IN HEVRON. The most seriously injured person was a Jewish boy. Now, before you all go into attack mode…I TOTALLY CONDEMN ATTACKS ON ARAB PROPERTY OR PERSONS CARRIED OUT IN ‘DEFENSE” OF THE HOUSE IN HEVRON. But, let’s be honest, these attacks serve YOUR interest, you of the “progressive”, anti-Judea/Samaria crowd.
You may have heard Lenin’s infamous statement “to make an omelet, you have to crack eggs”. People have asked why the police were so ineffective in stopping Jewish attacks on Arab property yet they managed to organize the subsequent assault on the House very efficiently. Maybe someone in high places (Barak?) thinks that the perception of “Jewish violence” will serve the political interests of those, like you, who want the Jews out of Hevron, or that it will increase the vote for the Labor Party whose standings in the polls is very low? The Jews of Hevron and Kiryat Arba need good relations with the neighboring Arabs more than you do in your Jerusalem cocoon. I spoke to one of the people who was living in the House and they said they were succeeding in establishing communications with the neighboring Arabs which had been broken off by Oslo and Israel’s importation of Arafat’s terrorists who intimidated Hevron’s Arabs into breaking off contact with the city’s Jews which had been intitiated from the very beginning of Jewish settlement in the area in 1971.

]]> By: tamar http://southjerusalem.com/2008/12/return-to-hebron-city-of-nightmares-and-hope/comment-page-1/#comment-5377 tamar Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:58:47 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=627#comment-5377 When you told of bringing candies and toys to the children, I began to choke up. How despicable the actions of some technically identified Jews and how divinely sweet your visit and genuine affection for their/our/my cousins. When you told of bringing candies and toys to the children, I began to choke up. How despicable the actions of some technically identified Jews and how divinely sweet your visit and genuine affection for their/our/my cousins.

]]> By: Sian http://southjerusalem.com/2008/12/return-to-hebron-city-of-nightmares-and-hope/comment-page-1/#comment-5374 Sian Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:02:06 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=627#comment-5374 Chazak u'varuch. Thanks for joining that group and for being good Jews. For remembering Torah and for having the courage to do what's right. Chazak u’varuch. Thanks for joining that group and for being good Jews. For remembering Torah and for having the courage to do what’s right.

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