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	<title>Comments on: Yes, a Settlement Freeze is Legally Possible. Settlement Itself Isn&#8217;t</title>
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	<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/</link>
	<description>A Progressive, Skeptical Blog on Israel, Judaism, Culture, Politics, and Literature</description>
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		<title>By: Y. Ben-David</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12672</link>
		<dc:creator>Y. Ben-David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12672</guid>
		<description>LB-
Just try saying that there is no such thing as a &quot;Palestinian people&quot; to the Jewish &quot;progressives&quot; and that the first use of the term Naqba was when the Arabs of Palestines protested the severing of Palestine from Syria around 1920 by the victorious British and French after World Wra I. They said &quot;we are not Palestinians, we are Syrians, this is a Naqba!&quot;.  The Jewish &quot;progressives&quot; will go crazy and say you are lying..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LB-<br />
Just try saying that there is no such thing as a &#8220;Palestinian people&#8221; to the Jewish &#8220;progressives&#8221; and that the first use of the term Naqba was when the Arabs of Palestines protested the severing of Palestine from Syria around 1920 by the victorious British and French after World Wra I. They said &#8220;we are not Palestinians, we are Syrians, this is a Naqba!&#8221;.  The Jewish &#8220;progressives&#8221; will go crazy and say you are lying..</p>
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		<title>By: LB</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12656</link>
		<dc:creator>LB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12656</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Shlomo Sand has just published a book stating how the Jewish “people” were created in the 19th century by early neocons, and thus there is no Jewish claim to Palestine. &quot;&lt;/i&gt;

This is the second time I&#039;ve seen this book referenced in a comment on this blog. Apart from highlighting how political motivations can lead people to write some really stupid things, it doesn&#039;t appear to be of any value. The book has been widely discredited by people who are actually experts in the field (unlike Mr. Sand), and from all accounts (even Tom Segev&#039;s, who unsurprisingly supported the book) is an example of shooting the arrow and drawing the target around it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Shlomo Sand has just published a book stating how the Jewish “people” were created in the 19th century by early neocons, and thus there is no Jewish claim to Palestine. &#8220;</i></p>
<p>This is the second time I&#8217;ve seen this book referenced in a comment on this blog. Apart from highlighting how political motivations can lead people to write some really stupid things, it doesn&#8217;t appear to be of any value. The book has been widely discredited by people who are actually experts in the field (unlike Mr. Sand), and from all accounts (even Tom Segev&#8217;s, who unsurprisingly supported the book) is an example of shooting the arrow and drawing the target around it.</p>
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		<title>By: Raghav</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12631</link>
		<dc:creator>Raghav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12631</guid>
		<description>I should note that the above argument is also made in the book by Professor Kretzmer that Gershom recommended, in pages 34 and 35.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should note that the above argument is also made in the book by Professor Kretzmer that Gershom recommended, in pages 34 and 35.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12597</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12597</guid>
		<description>For me this is like two kids who have a fight. &quot;He said this&quot;, &quot;yeah but he did that&quot;, &quot;but he started it&quot;. Enough already. The world should act like a parent telling the two parties to stop it and behave. Going back through what should or should not have happened, or what is or was illegal is a red herring. Draw the damn line and if your settlement is in Palestine good luck and send us a postcard. If you don&#039;t like it leave. Unravelling all this crap is a waste of time. Let them build their stupid houses and get on with the peace process without them, making it clear that new Israeli settlements may find themselves in Palestine and subject to Palestinian jurisdiction. At the moment building settlements seems to be a way to stall the peace process to allow expansion. You have to nullify that. A proper state has to have minorities after all. The rest is about putting a financial package together that adequately compensates arab losses. You want ten english, gentile pounds from me to help make this go away, you can have it. Make it twenty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me this is like two kids who have a fight. &#8220;He said this&#8221;, &#8220;yeah but he did that&#8221;, &#8220;but he started it&#8221;. Enough already. The world should act like a parent telling the two parties to stop it and behave. Going back through what should or should not have happened, or what is or was illegal is a red herring. Draw the damn line and if your settlement is in Palestine good luck and send us a postcard. If you don&#8217;t like it leave. Unravelling all this crap is a waste of time. Let them build their stupid houses and get on with the peace process without them, making it clear that new Israeli settlements may find themselves in Palestine and subject to Palestinian jurisdiction. At the moment building settlements seems to be a way to stall the peace process to allow expansion. You have to nullify that. A proper state has to have minorities after all. The rest is about putting a financial package together that adequately compensates arab losses. You want ten english, gentile pounds from me to help make this go away, you can have it. Make it twenty.</p>
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		<title>By: Raghav</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12596</link>
		<dc:creator>Raghav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12596</guid>
		<description>Ploni,

I should preface my comments by saying that I don&#039;t have any background in Israeli or international law either. You might be interested in the comments thread on this topic at the right-of-center American legal blog, the Volokh Conspiracy.  In particular, &lt;a href=&quot;http://volokh.com/posts/1141687683.shtml#71824&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this comment&lt;/a&gt; summarizes the argument made by the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ICJ&#039;s advisory opinion&lt;/a&gt;, which centers on the fact that GC4, by its own terms, applies to conflicts between High Contracting Parties (including the Six-Day War) and not just territory captured from an HCP by another HCP. There&#039;s also plenty of criticism of that viewpoint.

The author of that comment also addresses the &lt;i&gt;terra nullius&lt;/i&gt; line, pointing out that the ICJ, in its &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/61/6195.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;advisory opinion on Western Sahara&lt;/a&gt;, found that the concept (at least, as understood at the time the territory was colonized by Spain) was extremely narrow: it only applied to territories free from tribes or peoples who had social and political organization. Unfortunately, the opinion doesn&#039;t cite any sources for its conclusion.

More to the point, your insistence on trying to find &quot;the correct answer&quot; independent of judicial glosses seems pretty formalistic; not only might it be the case that the other legal materials are simply indeterminate on this point, but it also ignores the judicial role in creating law. (A professor of mine liked to tell the story of how he was interviewed by a local news agency after the U.S. Supreme Court&#039;s decision in &lt;i&gt;Planned Parenthood v. Casey&lt;/i&gt;, which allowed states to place certain restrictions on abortion but not to ban it outright. After he had given his views, the cameraman wanted some stock footage and asked him to take a copy of the Constitution off the shelf, open it, and point to the abortion clause! Of course, American abortion jurisprudence is a bad example of the point I&#039;m trying to make.)

That said, I have to say that I share your (since abandoned?) skepticism about the relevance of international law. I tend to agree with recent reductionist accounts of international law that see it as a special kind of politics. Can I ask what changed your mind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ploni,</p>
<p>I should preface my comments by saying that I don&#8217;t have any background in Israeli or international law either. You might be interested in the comments thread on this topic at the right-of-center American legal blog, the Volokh Conspiracy.  In particular, <a href="http://volokh.com/posts/1141687683.shtml#71824" rel="nofollow">this comment</a> summarizes the argument made by the <a href="http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf" rel="nofollow">ICJ&#8217;s advisory opinion</a>, which centers on the fact that GC4, by its own terms, applies to conflicts between High Contracting Parties (including the Six-Day War) and not just territory captured from an HCP by another HCP. There&#8217;s also plenty of criticism of that viewpoint.</p>
<p>The author of that comment also addresses the <i>terra nullius</i> line, pointing out that the ICJ, in its <a href="http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/61/6195.pdf" rel="nofollow">advisory opinion on Western Sahara</a>, found that the concept (at least, as understood at the time the territory was colonized by Spain) was extremely narrow: it only applied to territories free from tribes or peoples who had social and political organization. Unfortunately, the opinion doesn&#8217;t cite any sources for its conclusion.</p>
<p>More to the point, your insistence on trying to find &#8220;the correct answer&#8221; independent of judicial glosses seems pretty formalistic; not only might it be the case that the other legal materials are simply indeterminate on this point, but it also ignores the judicial role in creating law. (A professor of mine liked to tell the story of how he was interviewed by a local news agency after the U.S. Supreme Court&#8217;s decision in <i>Planned Parenthood v. Casey</i>, which allowed states to place certain restrictions on abortion but not to ban it outright. After he had given his views, the cameraman wanted some stock footage and asked him to take a copy of the Constitution off the shelf, open it, and point to the abortion clause! Of course, American abortion jurisprudence is a bad example of the point I&#8217;m trying to make.)</p>
<p>That said, I have to say that I share your (since abandoned?) skepticism about the relevance of international law. I tend to agree with recent reductionist accounts of international law that see it as a special kind of politics. Can I ask what changed your mind?</p>
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		<title>By: Zak</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12587</link>
		<dc:creator>Zak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12587</guid>
		<description>Gershom, 

I guess you hsve to decide if you are a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew after all.

:-)

Zak</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gershom, </p>
<p>I guess you hsve to decide if you are a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew after all.</p>
<p> <img src='http://southjerusalem.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Zak</p>
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		<title>By: Y. Ben-David</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12567</link>
		<dc:creator>Y. Ben-David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12567</guid>
		<description>Gershom-
One other thing..you say I have a &quot;simplistic view&quot; of &quot;progressives&quot; and &quot;Palestinians&quot;. What would you call your characterization of the Jews of Gush Katif as being similar to the Ku Klux Klan, which I have not forgetten? (Remember your posting on the Israel Post Office making a stamp about Gush Katif and you stated that it would be like the US Post Office honoring the Klan?). You , as someone who has researched in depth the history of the settlement movement know that the people who settled Gush Katif were NOT Gush Emunim-types and it was Rabin and the Labor Party that pushed for it in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gershom-<br />
One other thing..you say I have a &#8220;simplistic view&#8221; of &#8220;progressives&#8221; and &#8220;Palestinians&#8221;. What would you call your characterization of the Jews of Gush Katif as being similar to the Ku Klux Klan, which I have not forgetten? (Remember your posting on the Israel Post Office making a stamp about Gush Katif and you stated that it would be like the US Post Office honoring the Klan?). You , as someone who has researched in depth the history of the settlement movement know that the people who settled Gush Katif were NOT Gush Emunim-types and it was Rabin and the Labor Party that pushed for it in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Y. Ben-David</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12566</link>
		<dc:creator>Y. Ben-David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12566</guid>
		<description>Gershom-
I never said you personally lived in an Arab house, but your Yedidya congregation is on Arab land, and no doubt many of its members also live on Arab land which is in the neighborhood. An old friend of yours, another &quot;progressive&quot; religious blogger, who, unlike you is anti-Zionist, said he refuses to travel on highway 443 because it is on occupied Arab land (just like the Western Wall and Jewish Quarter of the Old City), but he also admitted that he himself DOES live on top  of an Arab house. When someone else pointed out the hypocrisy of this, his reply is &quot;I am not responsible to compensate the old owner, the state is&quot;. This is rather odd reasoning.

It also doesn&#039;t surprise me that you want to get rid of the Golan and oppose settlement there, but you don&#039;t mention it much here at all, possibly because the pioneers in settling the area, were Leftists who are politically &quot;kosher&quot; in the eyes of &quot;progressives&quot;, even if wrong in this case, unlike those &quot;Bible thumping, gun-toting, kippah-wearing extremist settlers&quot; in Judea/Samaria who get the &quot;progressives&quot; so agitated.  Apparently, settlement as such is not the problem, but what tribe one belongs to that makes all the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gershom-<br />
I never said you personally lived in an Arab house, but your Yedidya congregation is on Arab land, and no doubt many of its members also live on Arab land which is in the neighborhood. An old friend of yours, another &#8220;progressive&#8221; religious blogger, who, unlike you is anti-Zionist, said he refuses to travel on highway 443 because it is on occupied Arab land (just like the Western Wall and Jewish Quarter of the Old City), but he also admitted that he himself DOES live on top  of an Arab house. When someone else pointed out the hypocrisy of this, his reply is &#8220;I am not responsible to compensate the old owner, the state is&#8221;. This is rather odd reasoning.</p>
<p>It also doesn&#8217;t surprise me that you want to get rid of the Golan and oppose settlement there, but you don&#8217;t mention it much here at all, possibly because the pioneers in settling the area, were Leftists who are politically &#8220;kosher&#8221; in the eyes of &#8220;progressives&#8221;, even if wrong in this case, unlike those &#8220;Bible thumping, gun-toting, kippah-wearing extremist settlers&#8221; in Judea/Samaria who get the &#8220;progressives&#8221; so agitated.  Apparently, settlement as such is not the problem, but what tribe one belongs to that makes all the difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Gershom Gorenberg</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12554</link>
		<dc:creator>Gershom Gorenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12554</guid>
		<description>Mr. Ben-David,

You tend to attack Haim and I based on a two-dimensional cut-out of &quot;progressives&quot; that is not simplistic but anachronistic - quite similar to the way you attack Palestinians and Muslims. 

I&#039;m really sorry to disappoint you: I don&#039;t live in an Arab house abandoned in 1948. 

And to disappoint you again, I do condemn settlement in the Golan Heights. 

It&#039;s true that especially in the first years of the occupation, many members of parties of the old Israeli left, especially Ahdut Ha&#039;avodah, supported settlement on the Golan.  As a historian, I describe this in &quot;Accidental Empire,&quot; and explain how they came to this position.  As a politically active Israeli, I believe they were deeply mistaken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Ben-David,</p>
<p>You tend to attack Haim and I based on a two-dimensional cut-out of &#8220;progressives&#8221; that is not simplistic but anachronistic &#8211; quite similar to the way you attack Palestinians and Muslims. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m really sorry to disappoint you: I don&#8217;t live in an Arab house abandoned in 1948. </p>
<p>And to disappoint you again, I do condemn settlement in the Golan Heights. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that especially in the first years of the occupation, many members of parties of the old Israeli left, especially Ahdut Ha&#8217;avodah, supported settlement on the Golan.  As a historian, I describe this in &#8220;Accidental Empire,&#8221; and explain how they came to this position.  As a politically active Israeli, I believe they were deeply mistaken.</p>
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		<title>By: Y. Ben-David</title>
		<link>http://southjerusalem.com/2009/06/yes-a-settlement-freeze-is-legally-possible-settlement-itself-isnt/comment-page-1/#comment-12552</link>
		<dc:creator>Y. Ben-David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://southjerusalem.com/?p=1367#comment-12552</guid>
		<description>G (or would you prefer &quot;H&quot;?) -
I can only hope you are right. Gush Katif went under without any resistance. A terrible precedent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G (or would you prefer &#8220;H&#8221;?) -<br />
I can only hope you are right. Gush Katif went under without any resistance. A terrible precedent.</p>
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