you said

“The important question to ask is why did the “jewish” state choose to turn its back on the best jewish values, only to then demand recognition as Jewish” state from the very ones it discriminates against openly and increasingly harshly.”

I come to South Jerusalem because it represents to me the best of Jewish values.

But of democracy, thank goodness this blog is not one. We all get to savor the excellent posts, the thoughtful give and take, because the screaming and hatred that would otherwise swamp it cannot be posted here.

Nope. Historically this region has always been a highway of immigration. Bosnian Moslems moved to Caesarea; Cherkassy were expelled by the Russians and came to the Galil and Abu Gosh and Amman; Morrocan Jews and Moslems alike moved here with the permission of the Sultan; guys fleeing debt and conscription in Egypt moved to Jaffa; Algerians fled French reprisals and sought refuge under the Sultan in the Galil….The very FIRST “Zionist” was a Baghdadi Jews who decided to live outside the protection of city walls and farm his won land in the 1860s in Motza.

NOBODY has lived here forever, although both Arab and Jewish populations have deeply rooted connections to his region. Please stop peddling the “we-were-here-first” propaganda. No, historically, Jews and Arabs alike lived here and both populations saw migration in and out during the Ottoman Empire and British Mandate. And after all–so what? The U.N. decided that each group, since they weren’t getting along too well, was entitled to their national homeland based on a demographic split.

Jewish citizens of the Sultan were as entitled to their own national aspirations for a homeland as Arab citizens of the Sultan.

And Jews and Moslems DO marry–they do what every other sensible Israeli does to circumvent the millet system –they go to Cyprus or Jordan or Ramallah. Silly piece of propaganda.

There…I made it….short comment(!) + a compliment. Can now be mean me – at length – the rest of the day – with relish……

I recommend that you find a way to watch the Israeli sitcom “Arab Work”. It’s going into a second season now. You can check LinkTV to find it (a DVD is available of the first season). Quite hilarious.

Aaron – regarding your comment 13 on ostensible european disapproval of the concept of staatvolk when the volk are brown/white. You use that as a club to bash asymmetric selective condemnation of lil’ ol’ israel. The point you make is an interesting one and has some merit in that europeans can indeed be amazingly selective in their condemnations. But you are carrying it too far – Israel is a lightning rod for condemnation not so much because of the anachronism of attempting to fashion a staatvolk in the 20th going into 21st century (just like the basques failed to do?). The Europeans have come to look askance at the enterprise of Israel BECAUSE the extended occupation made them realize just how much of it was based on the anachronism of the colonialist model of old. It’s not that Israel was once as Yugoslavia was , then broke up into ethnically based bits and pieces. It’s that European people went there and threw out most of the indiginous people, while keeping the rest as lower caste, even as they proceeded to bring in people with whom they had (or pretended they did, cf the mizrahi) ethnic affinity. In other words, israel is more like the much older models of human conquest, settlement, and banishment. The similarities are closer to models of old India conquered by the arians from the north and south america by the spanish – things that happened way back when. With one key difference – when it comes to the occupied territories they do not in fact want to keep the conquered palestinians as citizens, or they would have been annexed already. Which is why the entire enterprise – in its full colonial glory – has come to be seen as a throw back to humanity’s bad old days days. And for being an increasingly condemned anachronism, it’ll take refuge in xenophobia and sectarian parochialism. And that’s what will, in due course, cause it to implode. Not necessarily by war, but by internal strife and slow attrition. And that attrition will include people such as yourself when you no longer find it comfortable enough.

Suzanne – everyone does what they can to fight against that which they find deplorable and/or dangerous to humanity’s welfare (and israel is a significant part of that humanity, which is now on trial in that part of the world). Some are motivated to go into the killing fields putting their actual person on the line, some write books and/or blogs, some demonstrate and some comment. It’s all for the good. Who knows – there were times in history when a mere word or two brought change. None of us can choose the right word or the form redemption will take – should it ever come to pass. All we can do in the space of one life is to choose a side. Enough people choosing the side of angels (figuratively speaking) can tip the boat – though alas, the cause and effect may only become clear over historical – not human – times. This is the best I can do to be encouraging given the program that I am.

1. there’s such a thing as being too smart for one’s good (true enough and then some)
2. Forget the trees for once and look at the forest. Ain’t it pretty?
3. The whole can be less than the sum of the parts especially if there are too many parts.
4. too much definition can focus attention on the warts of even the most beautiful.

OTOH, sometimes it’s those few strangely dissonant details that can ruin an otherwise good tale – for real. If the tale involves an individual, well, we just get a good Greek tragedy. But what if it’s a whole people across much time and space? maybe then it makes god cry and that’s not a good idea. Isn’t that what the prophets warned about? and were they not right? (of course most of the ones who weren’t probably didn’t get into the book. who’s to know?).

PS I’m still recovering from the hagar story (forgot whether it was yours or Gershom’s). The stray cat mother that no one adopted. So please – literary aspirations notewithtanding – no more sad animal stories. BTW – speaking of animals (just to set off on one little tangent) – personally I’ll never ever forgive israel for shooting the zoo animals in Gaza and the 10,000 chickens and that poor donkey. hamas or not – this was unforgivable – and this one little detail told me much of what I needed to know about the disintegration of the spirit that’s taking place just under the surface. It’s what I call – a significant “detail”.

PPS best of luck with the show tour in the US. Too bad it’s not in my neighborhood (northern california is so techno-philistine ….)

In my head re Israel, I became very disappointed in ’67 and with the “greater Israel” exuberance. Such a mistake. I was young, in my teens, but I knew already. And then in ’82 with regard toLebanon- I felt blood on Jewish hands as never before ( meaning no justification). I was upset. I don’t know what drives me to post here to tell you the truth b/c I too have less and less hope.

Anyway, my take on Y.Ben-David’s is that it’s whining. Who the hell cares what THEY allow and don’t allow? This is exactly what Fiddler is saying:

When Israel is so thoroughly oriented towards the west – its back, turned towards the Arab world, merely being something to watch – then it’s quite a chutzpah not only to excuse its more egregious faults with inadvertent influence of the loathed Arab world, but to be fine and dandy, proud even, of that which makes it more like its enemies.

Aaron- I really do not understand your dreams of reverting to the past. But maybe it is necessary to go through these stages in order to go forward. In other words, maybe a young state Israel) in the mold of the European states must go through the painful lessons. If so, then some of us should just sit back and watch, or get busy with other issues, read more history.