Comments for South Jerusalem: Gershom Gorenberg and Haim Watzman http://southjerusalem.com A Progressive, Skeptical Blog on Israel, Judaism, Culture, Politics, and Literature Sat, 17 May 2008 11:41:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU Comment on Obama. What’s Complicated Here? by SLC http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/13/obama-whats-complicated-here/#comment-546 SLC Fri, 16 May 2008 12:39:38 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=143#comment-546 Mr. Gorenberg is living in a dream world. The Hamas terrorists cannot be negotiated with or reasoned with. They can only be dealt with at the point of a gun. Their goal is the expulsion of all non-Muslims from the Middle East. Attached is a link to an article about their most recent attempt to expel all Christians from the Gaza Strip. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1210668651761&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Mr. Gorenberg is living in a dream world. The Hamas terrorists cannot be negotiated with or reasoned with. They can only be dealt with at the point of a gun. Their goal is the expulsion of all non-Muslims from the Middle East. Attached is a link to an article about their most recent attempt to expel all Christians from the Gaza Strip.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1210668651761&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

]]> Comment on Synagogue and State: Good Ideas That Don’t Mix by Y. Ben-David http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/15/synagogue-and-state-good-ideas-that-dont-mix/#comment-545 Y. Ben-David Fri, 16 May 2008 10:32:54 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=148#comment-545 Although I am Orthodox/religious and do no pray in non-Orthodox synagogues, I do think there is merit in reducing the connection between religion and state in Israel. I do not believe total separation is a good idea, but having come from the United States I have learned that having too close a connection between religion and state is not a good thing. Religious life in the United States, where there is separation between religion and state, is much more vigorous than it is in Europe where there are state churches. For religious leaders to grant unqualified support to a state apparatus on relgious grounds is very dangerous. Religious leaders need to be in a state of constructive tension with the state....in other words, not to negative the importance of the state and national identity, but on the other hand, to be at the forefront of criticism where the state infringes on the rights of the people or their welfare. The best example of this is someone who was not a Jews, but rather a Christian---Reinhold Niebuhr in the United States. He was at first a pacificst and socialist and he also defended the rights of exploited workers. However, with the rise of Fascism, he changed his views and said the world should stand up to this threat and he supported the US participation in the Second World War. He also opposed Communism and was a big supporter of Zionism. I think eliminating the religious parties and giving some sort of recognition of non-Orthodox trends in Judaism would only benefit the Orthodox/religious community. In New York, for example, there are no Jewish "religious parties" yet the Orthodox there have a lot of political clout. Such moves would help push along a badly needed democratization of Israel society. In the early years of the state, the MIZRACHI Religious Zionists supported authoritarian tendencies in the gov't, thinking it would keep out the non-Orthodox trends, but the world has changed. These authoritarian tendencies are now damaging the Orthodox/religious community, such as the restriction of radio stations, preventing many religious groups from getting their opinions across, or restricting gov't financial aid to those who have political connections even if there is a larger public following to those who lack such connections. Thus, I believe that non-Orthodox synagogues should be entitled to gov't funding, if they can show that they have community backing. I would also allow Rabbis of all trends to come into the public secular schools to explain Judaism to the students, and to have debates between the different Rabbis so they could clarify the positions of the different trends to these students. Of course, we then run into the problems about conversion and divorce, and I would expect the non-Orthodox to defer to the Orthodox in these matters so that there is a common standard that all can live with. To tell the truth, I don't believe there is any chance of the reforms I am talking about being implemented, but we can at least dream. No one who has power is voluntarily going to give it up, but the Orthodox Establishment should understand that the world is more pluralistic than it was 60 years ago and fresh thinking would only help the Orthodox themselves. How can they object to having secular Israelis being exposed to more Judaism in a free, non-coercive form, even if we don't agree 100% with those who are doing the talking? Although I am Orthodox/religious and do no pray in non-Orthodox synagogues, I do think there is merit in reducing the connection between religion and state in Israel. I do not believe total separation is a good idea, but having come from the United States I have learned that having too close a connection between religion and state is not a good thing.
Religious life in the United States, where there is separation between religion and state, is much more vigorous than it is in Europe where there are state churches.
For religious leaders to grant unqualified support to a state apparatus on relgious grounds is very dangerous. Religious leaders need to be in a state of constructive tension with the state….in other words, not to negative the importance of the state and national identity, but on the other hand, to be at the forefront of criticism where the state infringes on the rights of the people or their welfare. The best example of this is someone who was not a Jews, but rather a Christian—Reinhold Niebuhr in the United States. He was at first a pacificst and socialist and he also defended the rights of exploited workers. However, with the rise of Fascism, he changed his views and said the world should stand up to this threat and he supported the US participation in the Second World War. He also opposed Communism and was a big supporter of Zionism.
I think eliminating the religious parties and giving some sort of recognition of non-Orthodox trends in Judaism would only benefit the Orthodox/religious community. In New York, for example, there are no Jewish “religious parties” yet the Orthodox there have a lot of political clout. Such moves would help push along a badly needed democratization of Israel society. In the early years of the state, the MIZRACHI Religious Zionists supported authoritarian tendencies in the gov’t, thinking it would keep out the non-Orthodox trends, but the world has changed. These authoritarian tendencies are now damaging the Orthodox/religious community, such as the restriction of radio stations, preventing many religious groups from getting their opinions across, or restricting gov’t financial aid to those who have political connections even if there is a larger public following to those who lack such connections. Thus, I believe that non-Orthodox synagogues should be entitled to gov’t funding, if they can show that they have community backing. I would also allow Rabbis of all trends to come into the public secular schools to explain Judaism to the students, and to have debates between the different Rabbis so they could clarify the positions of the different trends to these students.
Of course, we then run into the problems about conversion and divorce, and I would expect the non-Orthodox to defer to the Orthodox in these matters so that there is a common standard that all can live with.

To tell the truth, I don’t believe there is any chance of the reforms I am talking about being implemented, but we can at least dream. No one who has power is voluntarily going to give it up, but the Orthodox Establishment should understand that the world is more pluralistic than it was 60 years ago and fresh thinking would only help the Orthodox themselves. How can they object to having secular Israelis being exposed to more Judaism in a free, non-coercive form, even if we don’t agree 100% with those who are doing the talking?

]]> Comment on Update: Bush and Lebanon; Obama, Israel and Islam by Y. Ben-David http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/15/update-bush-and-lebanon-obama-israel-and-islam/#comment-544 Y. Ben-David Fri, 16 May 2008 05:16:42 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=147#comment-544 Gershom said about Obama: ------------------------------------------------------------------ He should, and could, have responded more forcefully: His opponents’ policies are dangerous to Israel. ----------------------------------------------------------------- I presume you are referring to when Obama said "to be pro-Israel is not necessarily pro-Likud", and that being "pro-Israel" to many "Progressives" and "J-Street Lobby" types means pressing Israel to make unilateral concessions, pressing Israel to take moves that endanger its security, giving weapons and money to a Palestinian Authority that has never tried to stop terrorism and steals aid that is given to it. Obama might not be aware of it, but the Likud has been in power in the past and may come to power again. So what he is saying is that he will put himself at odds with an elected Israel government, in addition to majority opinion of Jews in the United States. I don't see how you can call this "pro-Israel". He has the right to do this because his job as President would be to look out for American interests, and if he thinks Israel's interests conflict with this, he should ooenly say so, but not claim it is "being pro-Israel". (Shmuel Rosner recently wrote in Ha'aretz about how the term "pro-Israel" has come to be applied to everyone who thinks the Jews shouldn't be summarily thrown into the sea and has lost all meaning). Of course one can claim "Only I know the truth and what I define as good for Israel even if everyone else opposes it", but then those who oppose these views have every right to deny that this is really being "pro-Israel". Gershom said about Obama:
——————————————————————
He should, and could, have responded more forcefully: His opponents’ policies are dangerous to Israel.
—————————————————————–

I presume you are referring to when Obama said “to be pro-Israel is not necessarily pro-Likud”, and that being “pro-Israel” to many “Progressives” and “J-Street Lobby” types means pressing Israel to make unilateral concessions, pressing Israel to take moves that endanger its security, giving weapons and money to a Palestinian Authority that has never tried to stop terrorism and steals aid that is given to it.

Obama might not be aware of it, but the Likud has been in power in the past and may come to power again. So what he is saying is that he will put himself at odds with an elected Israel government, in addition to majority opinion of Jews in the United States. I don’t see how you can call this “pro-Israel”. He has the right to do this because his job as President would be to look out for American interests, and if he thinks Israel’s interests conflict with this, he should ooenly say so, but not claim it is “being pro-Israel”. (Shmuel Rosner recently wrote in Ha’aretz about how the term “pro-Israel” has come to be applied to everyone who thinks the Jews shouldn’t be summarily thrown into the sea and has lost all meaning). Of course one can claim “Only I know the truth and what I define as good for Israel even if everyone else opposes it”, but then those who oppose these views have every right to deny that this is really being “pro-Israel”.

]]> Comment on On Voting Across the Sea by Clif http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/15/on-voting-across-the-sea/#comment-543 Clif Fri, 16 May 2008 04:43:53 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=149#comment-543 However you decide concerning your vote, a far more powerful effect is in what you both write, both on this blog and generally. The sad fact is that, as you mentioned, so many Americans vote without knowing much about what they are voting for, and this is probably to be expected in a huge democracy. Israel was unknown to me until I saw the movie Exodus. Then Israelis became the good guys and I remember cheering for Israel in high school during the '67 war. The older I became the more I wondered about the endless strife. Why were the bad guys, the Palestinians, so crazy? How could they do such apparently mindless things to a people who had brought such progress to a backward area? Nothing in the news in the United States ever intimated that there might be another side to the story. I knew plenty of Jews, my own sister converted to Judaism, but I knew not a single Palestinian and nothing about Islam. It was at my sister's home that I spotted Conor Cruise O'Brien's book, <i>The Siege</i> and began to read. Suddenly I became aware that there was far far more to the history of Israel than that of a band of rugged heroes who knew how to stand up for themselves and proudly taught a bunch of swarthy rogues a lesson. I became fascinated with the history. So the Palestinians were not devils incarnate. They had a story too. Book after book I have read on Israel and the Middle East and I've taken undergrad courses on such things as the history of the Ottoman Empire. I am now awed and ashamed at the profound ignorance in which I dwelled for so long. Yet as I query my fellow citizens I realize that ignorance of the Middle East is widespread, it is the rule. In fact, I have had people say to me, "Oh, it's too complicated, I don't want to hear about it" or "They are all insane over there, I just wish both sides would blow each other up and be done with it." I want to shake them and say "But your country is contributing in a major way to what happens over there - WAKE UP!" Only within the past few years has another voice been heard in the States, a voice that questions the knee-jerk support for Israel's right wing. I am astounded at the way Israel has essentially thumbed its nose at U.S. policy that directly opposed the settlements...and with only a few hesitations has prevailed and continues to do so! Only recently have I discovered such groups as B'Tselem whose excellent publications I get regularly. Only recently have I come to understand how the bitterness of the Palestinians has come to be and what a benighted people they are, even through actions of their own. They need a land of their own! So to say that you will vote because you are informed is of small account in relation to the work you can do to inform those who known nothing as I did. Things are changing in the United States and you are helping to change them, for the good of both the U.S. and Israel. However you decide concerning your vote, a far more powerful effect is in what you both write, both on this blog and generally. The sad fact is that, as you mentioned, so many Americans vote without knowing much about what they are voting for, and this is probably to be expected in a huge democracy.

Israel was unknown to me until I saw the movie Exodus. Then Israelis became the good guys and I remember cheering for Israel in high school during the ‘67 war.

The older I became the more I wondered about the endless strife. Why were the bad guys, the Palestinians, so crazy? How could they do such apparently mindless things to a people who had brought such progress to a backward area? Nothing in the news in the United States ever intimated that there might be another side to the story. I knew plenty of Jews, my own sister converted to Judaism, but I knew not a single Palestinian and nothing about Islam.

It was at my sister’s home that I spotted Conor Cruise O’Brien’s book, The Siege and began to read. Suddenly I became aware that there was far far more to the history of Israel than that of a band of rugged heroes who knew how to stand up for themselves and proudly taught a bunch of swarthy rogues a lesson.

I became fascinated with the history. So the Palestinians were not devils incarnate. They had a story too. Book after book I have read on Israel and the Middle East and I’ve taken undergrad courses on such things as the history of the Ottoman Empire. I am now awed and ashamed at the profound ignorance in which I dwelled for so long. Yet as I query my fellow citizens I realize that ignorance of the Middle East is widespread, it is the rule. In fact, I have had people say to me, “Oh, it’s too complicated, I don’t want to hear about it” or “They are all insane over there, I just wish both sides would blow each other up and be done with it.” I want to shake them and say “But your country is contributing in a major way to what happens over there - WAKE UP!”

Only within the past few years has another voice been heard in the States, a voice that questions the knee-jerk support for Israel’s right wing. I am astounded at the way Israel has essentially thumbed its nose at U.S. policy that directly opposed the settlements…and with only a few hesitations has prevailed and continues to do so!

Only recently have I discovered such groups as B’Tselem whose excellent publications I get regularly. Only recently have I come to understand how the bitterness of the Palestinians has come to be and what a benighted people they are, even through actions of their own. They need a land of their own!

So to say that you will vote because you are informed is of small account in relation to the work you can do to inform those who known nothing as I did. Things are changing in the United States and you are helping to change them, for the good of both the U.S. and Israel.

]]> Comment on Update: Bush and Lebanon; Obama, Israel and Islam by Israel » Hagee's apocalyptic support of Israel http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/15/update-bush-and-lebanon-obama-israel-and-islam/#comment-541 Israel » Hagee's apocalyptic support of Israel Fri, 16 May 2008 03:22:33 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=147#comment-541 [...] Update: Bush and Lebanon; Obama, Israel and IslamAs I mentioned earlier , the Bush administration’s obstruction of peace talks between Israel and Syria has helped Hezbollah and Iran push for control of Lebanon. My new piece on the subject is now up at the American Prospect : … [...] [...] Update: Bush and Lebanon; Obama, Israel and IslamAs I mentioned earlier , the Bush administration’s obstruction of peace talks between Israel and Syria has helped Hezbollah and Iran push for control of Lebanon. My new piece on the subject is now up at the American Prospect : … [...]

]]> Comment on On Voting Across the Sea by The Other Alan http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/15/on-voting-across-the-sea/#comment-540 The Other Alan Thu, 15 May 2008 23:00:30 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=149#comment-540 There's a difference between an expat and a citizen of another country. I presume you've become a citizen of Israel, so you're no longer an expat. I would say this is dual-loyalty, even if we might agree on a number of issues. There’s a difference between an expat and a citizen of another country. I presume you’ve become a citizen of Israel, so you’re no longer an expat. I would say this is dual-loyalty, even if we might agree on a number of issues.

]]> Comment on On Voting Across the Sea by Chris Dornan http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/15/on-voting-across-the-sea/#comment-539 Chris Dornan Thu, 15 May 2008 20:56:10 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=149#comment-539 Very well said: you have the vote use it. (In any case I think your writing may have a more significant effect on the outcome.) Very well said: you have the vote use it. (In any case I think your writing may have a more significant effect on the outcome.)

]]> Comment on Update: Bush and Lebanon; Obama, Israel and Islam by St Michael Traveler http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/15/update-bush-and-lebanon-obama-israel-and-islam/#comment-538 St Michael Traveler Thu, 15 May 2008 18:49:48 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=147#comment-538 Think Outside of Israeli Lobby Box We have had 60 years of experimenting about the Israeli- Palestinian struggle. The region would need help before we will be dragged into a World War III. No one can reject the fact that creation of Israel on the land of Arabic nations has created tremendous political and economical problems for the United States. We may have to look outside of the box to diffuse the problems. One solution would be for Israel joining us as a member of the Unites States’ Common Wealth. Would Israel consider joining us as a member of the Unites States’ Common Wealth? What are costs and benefits for US? We are already supporting Israel economically, politically and by sharing intelligence and military hardware. In addition, some Israeli Americans with both Israeli and American citizenships serve in the Israeli Armed Forces. Israel never would have to be fearful of any other nation; our great American Armed Forces will protect the common wealth as they would the homeland. Would it be politically more advantages for the United States to manage the Jewish state as a member of our Common Wealth? Would it be economically more advantages for Israeli people to be a member of our nation? The Israeli Common Wealth will be free to exercise the religious freedom that our great nation would offer without being isolated among the hostile Arabs. Should the Common Wealth include the Arabs who were forced to leave the land when Zionist invaded the land? Should the area of the Common Wealth include all of the Palestinian Land? Would really two nation model for Palestinian and Israeli work in the future? Should we be looking at the region as a Federal States with one government elected by all of the people? We have been forced in one box by the Israeli Lobby; we need to look outside of this box. What do you think? Think Outside of Israeli Lobby Box

We have had 60 years of experimenting about the Israeli- Palestinian struggle. The region would need help before we will be dragged into a World War III.

No one can reject the fact that creation of Israel on the land of Arabic nations has created tremendous political and economical problems for the United States. We may have to look outside of the box to diffuse the problems. One solution would be for Israel joining us as a member of the Unites States’ Common Wealth.

Would Israel consider joining us as a member of the Unites States’ Common Wealth?
What are costs and benefits for US?

We are already supporting Israel economically, politically and by sharing intelligence and military hardware. In addition, some Israeli Americans with both Israeli and American citizenships serve in the Israeli Armed Forces. Israel never would have to be fearful of any other nation; our great American Armed Forces will protect the common wealth as they would the homeland.

Would it be politically more advantages for the United States to manage the Jewish state as a member of our Common Wealth?

Would it be economically more advantages for Israeli people to be a member of our nation?

The Israeli Common Wealth will be free to exercise the religious freedom that our great nation would offer without being isolated among the hostile Arabs.

Should the Common Wealth include the Arabs who were forced to leave the land when Zionist invaded the land?

Should the area of the Common Wealth include all of the Palestinian Land?

Would really two nation model for Palestinian and Israeli work in the future?

Should we be looking at the region as a Federal States with one government elected by all of the people?

We have been forced in one box by the Israeli Lobby; we need to look outside of this box. What do you think?

]]> Comment on Should Obama Get My Vote? by On Voting Across the Sea « South Jerusalem: Gershom Gorenberg and Haim Watzman http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/14/should-obama-get-my-vote/#comment-536 On Voting Across the Sea « South Jerusalem: Gershom Gorenberg and Haim Watzman Thu, 15 May 2008 18:14:21 +0000 http://southjerusalem.wordpress.com/?p=146#comment-536 [...] 15, 2008 by Gershom Gorenberg Since Haim quoted me on the subject of voting in America - and since his father disagreed with me - I’ll explain [...] [...] 15, 2008 by Gershom Gorenberg Since Haim quoted me on the subject of voting in America - and since his father disagreed with me - I’ll explain [...]

]]> Comment on Update: Pipes harms cranks’ image by Update: Bush and Lebanon; Obama, Israel and Islam « South Jerusalem: Gershom Gorenberg and Haim Watzman http://southjerusalem.com/2008/05/06/update-pipes-harms-cranks-image/#comment-530 Update: Bush and Lebanon; Obama, Israel and Islam « South Jerusalem: Gershom Gorenberg and Haim Watzman Thu, 15 May 2008 15:12:47 +0000 http://southjerusalem.com/?p=132#comment-530 [...] believing six impossible things before breakfast , it can be hard to accept that Barack Obama is a Muslim, a follower of a controversial black pastor , and a Marxist too. Edward Luttwak proposed this neat solution : Obama is really an apostate [...] [...] believing six impossible things before breakfast , it can be hard to accept that Barack Obama is a Muslim, a follower of a controversial black pastor , and a Marxist too. Edward Luttwak proposed this neat solution : Obama is really an apostate [...]

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